As we dive into our series on Healthy Church Leadership Cultures, we hope to hear from many CBWC churches about the way you do leadership and where you see health happening in your congregation. We begin with a conversation with Rev. Nate Collins, Co-Pastor at Hillside Church, North Vancouver.
CHURCH PLANTING: How would you describe the leadership structure at your church? Tell us about the makeup of the leadership and staff teams, Elders’ Board etc.
NATE: We have three co-pastors, a youth pastor, an administrator (who is also director of children’s ministries), a building manager, and often an intern or two. The three co-pastors share the responsibility of leading the church as a whole (along with our board of elders). We divvy up tasks based on gifting and available time. Decisions (at least big ones) are usually made in consultation with each other.
On paper, we are an elder-led church. Jeff, Pauline and I are not technically pastors from the church’s perspective, though we use the term plenty conversationally. Technically we are paid elders. We have 5 non-paid elders, too. Of course, we need some paid elders because non-paid elders don’t have time to run a church. The idea is that we are all equals on the elder board in terms of authority and influence.
In practice, though, it doesn’t quite work that way. Most of the elders do perform an important function: One oversees our tech team and leads worship a lot. One is an intern and on our preaching team. One spearheads our efforts toward reconciliation with indigenous peoples along with her husband. One oversees our finances. I don’t want to minimize that, because it’s really important and good. At the same time, I usually feel like it’s up to the pastors to make most stuff happen, whether it’s calling elders meetings, setting the agenda, leading vision casting for the year, planning what events we’ll do, etc. That’s not what I would imagine if I were to hear about an elder-led church with paid and non-paid elders who are all equal. I’m not complaining, but I think it’s important to be honest about both what we’re supposedly aiming at and how we actually function!
CP: How do people join the leadership team? What’s the relationship between congregation and leadership?
NATE: Basically, our elder board has a brainstorming session about who we think might make a good elder. Elders have a 3-year term, which can be renewed for a total of 6 years as an elder before a mandatory year off of being an elder. That means we’re usually looking for a new elder or two each year. When we think of someone who would be a good candidate, we ask (and sometimes beg) them. If they agree, then the congregation votes at our AGM on whether they should be an elder. People could ask to be an elder and people could nominate someone to be an elder, but I’ve only seen that once.
As for the relationship between elders, staff, and the congregation, it’s pretty open. We get some people in the congregation who like to see mainly the pastors as on a separate level from them, but that’s definitely not something we are trying to communicate at Hillside. Oddly, Pauline rarely gets put on a pedestal the way Jeff and I do. Lots of times people don’t feel like it counts as a pastor contacting them if Pauline does it. It drives her up the wall, as I’m sure you can imagine! In general, we try to foster an atmosphere of equality and accessibility.
CP: When you think about health and vitality in your congregation, what comes to mind?
NATE: Health and vitality in my congregation means people in active relationship with God and living as the people of God together. That’s vague, I know, but there you have it. I think it looks different for different people. I’m thinking a lot lately about how important it is for people to know how to go about their daily lives as followers of Christ. What does it mean for them to do their jobs as Christians? How do they interact with their co-workers as Christians? I can give a few examples:
- Diana, who is from Colombia and an accountant, is very passionate about prayer. She leads our prayer team, who pray regularly for our church and occasionally organize prayer meetings of various sorts for the rest of the congregation. The fact that she is that engaged in prayer is definitely a sign of health to me.
- Shannon is really passionate about welcoming people. Every Sunday she organizes greeters and, if a new person comes in, she’s right there, introducing herself and introducing the new person to whomever she thinks they will connect best with in our congregation. She also has people over for dinner to connect them or will meet people for coffee.
- We had a young couple from Australia start coming to our church. Partly due to their own intentionality with getting involved and partly due to the openness of our young adults, within a week they were at the birthday party of another person in our church and really quickly were at the heart of our little young adults group. That kind of attention to seeing new people and including them is a great sign of health to me.
- Two people, Bill and Wally, volunteer a lot of their time to look after the elderly in our congregation by calling them to check in or driving them places. They will even help out with grocery shopping from time to time.
CP: What elements of culture do you think drive the vitality you mentioned above? What do you think is behind the health?
NATE: I don’t think it’s so much about structures and guiding principles as it is about a mindset and a worldview. I think one of my main tasks is to help people see that their relationship with Jesus isn’t something they add to their life to make it better like we might add an exercise program or mindfulness exercises. Rather, our relationship ought to transform how we conceive of everything we do and experience because it changes who we are. This is God’s world and we are the people of God living in his world in the ways he wants. That changes everything, but subtly I think.
For me, there are a few main ways I try to shepherd people. One is sermons. I put a lot of work into my sermons because I think good preaching really matters and is key in shaping the way people understand God, the world, and their place in the world in relationship with God. It doesn’t happen with one killer sermon, but rather happens over years, I think, with each sermon being a small nudge in the right direction and doing work that neither I or they even notice, but that accumulates through the years. At least, that’s what I believe. I sure hope it’s true!
I also lead a young men’s Bible study (Katie leads one for young women) and we have some young adult gatherings and a retreat during the year. Those are important times, both for teaching on a more conversational level as well as relational connection.
After church is actually pretty important too. Someone (maybe Eugene Peterson?) coined the term “the ministry of small talk.” I don’t do well at small talk, but it is so important for people to feel connected and cared for, so I give it the old college try on Sundays, and it makes a difference.
I wish there were more ways. We’ve had more Christian Education stuff in the past and are planning something again for the new year, but that’s been on the wane lately.
CP: What do you wish people were talking about more when it comes to healthy leadership?
NATE: Healthy leadership is not about programs and numerical growth, but faithfully shepherding and nurturing your congregation. That’s really hard to measure, but I still think its right.
CP: What do you personally need to grow into a healthier leader?
NATE: Time to have more practice, advice from more experienced leaders, but I think the advice kind of needs to come at the right time. I don’t need people downloading all their thoughts on leadership into my head; I’ll just forget it all. What I need (and thankfully have with Jeff and Pauline) is people I can come to when I run across a situation in which I’m unsure how to proceed.
Candidly, I think my biggest weakness as a pastor is meeting with people one-on-one. I find it really hard to make happen. I always sort of imagined people would ask to meet with me. When they do, I think it goes fine. But, while it’s happened once or twice, it’s quite rare. And I’m terrible at making it happen. Partly, my natural inclination is to get other stuff done (prep for a sermon, schedule worship musicians, whatever), but also, I just get insecure about it. What if I can’t think of good stuff to talk about with the person? What if I’m awkward? When I do meet with people, it’s never as bad as I fear, but I do find it difficult to get down to deep conversation. I can ask questions about work or family or hobbies or what they did on the weekend, but I have a hard time drilling down to how their relationship with God is going or how they are doing with their spouse or struggles they are having with family or job or health. Pauline is great at it. She doesn’t beat around the bush. Somehow, she can be really direct with people and compassionate and sensitive all at once.
CP: Do you have any resources or ideas to share around developing health for and through the leaders in our congregations?
NATE: Honestly, I think the recent biography of Eugene Peterson, A Burning In My Bones, is a great look into how one guy tried to find a really good way of pastoring.
Thanks to Hillside and Nate Collins for your detailed and thoughtful comments! Watch this blog for Nate’s book review of A Burning In My Bones coming soon.
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